View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | View Status | Date Submitted | Last Update |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0006945 | Scribus | User Interface | public | 2008-04-12 15:10 | 2008-04-12 18:11 |
| Reporter | louisdesjardins | Assigned To | cbradney | ||
| Priority | normal | Severity | tweak | Reproducibility | always |
| Status | closed | Resolution | duplicate | ||
| Platform | Macintosh - Intel | OS | Mac OS X | OS Version | 10.4.11 |
| Product Version | 1.3.5svn | ||||
| Summary | 0006945: Better organisation of the list of pre-set sizes in New Document > Document layout > Size | ||||
| Description | The actual list of pre-set Sizes is very long and is not organised in a way users can readily make a choice. I suggest to organise those formats in the way they are in real life situation, given the context in which they are used. To help in that task I am mostly referring to wikipedia article on paper: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_de_papier First we have to agree this list is too long to be efficient and instead of helping the user make a choice, it puzzles him. 1. We could be tempted to shorten the list but apparently this is not acceptable from a couple of discussions we had. 2. We could be tempted to group those pre-set formats according to the standard they belong to. Thus, we could simply have a line, a separator in the list, that would make those standards stand out more rapidly. Basically, you’d group the ISO 216 formats together and do the same to the US and the French formats, each in its little zone. But this has its drawbacks too as well see further. And it doesn’t make the list shorter. 3. We could use the "Color lists approach" and have a new dialogue in the Edit menu that would be named "Paper Size" and in which a user could select one of the lists he wants, according to his context of work. A user could use one or more lists and make them appear in the New Document > Document layout > Size pull-down menu. An even better tweak could be to separate ISO 216 in its components A, B, C, D and E, so if a user mainly creates A4 documents, he’s not presented a long list of the sizes he won’t be using anyway. Same could apply to the US list, and probably to the French list too. 3+. Far most important, being able to create our own set of pre-set sizes would be a real nice addition. 3++. AND the default list could be a subset of both the DIN 218 and the US lists, with a "Custom size" that could readily be added to the list by the mean of an "Add to list" button. 4. Thinking this further, a fourth option arises but for this we need to explain a bit further the issue. * * * At the origin of this, there is a confusion I would like to try to dissipate. We are talking about 2 things at a same time and this is confusing at some point. This confusion have lead to create this comprehensive list, which is in my view unusable and can lead to potential errors. If we want to educate the users, we have to make it clear to them that there are 2 distinct reality here. We have to make a clear distinction between a "Document size" and "Paper size". In the smaller formats like Letter and A4, for instance, the size of the paper and the size of the document are the same, they, in a sense, merge, (although this is not true in all cases: eg. if you have a bleed letterhead, it will not be printed on a Letter size paper). But as soon as we get into larger sizes of paper, we are less likely to see a "Document" of that size, be it a poster or a folder. This will happen very rarely, in fact. The larger sizes are used to accommodate an imposed job, thus a smaller document printed on a larger sheet of paper. And while the precut sheet have a most definite number of sizes, the Document sizes are, on the contrary, an infinite number of sizes. I am not aware of how the use is made of the ISO 216 formats, in the countries where it is used, and if users are most likely to use them all or just a few of them, and if posters and other large pieces of work are called by those names (An A1 or B1 or C1 poster, for instance). But I am sure that if one wants a bleed poster of A1 size, ie. trimmed at that size, this document will have to be printed on the next possible sizes, B1 or C1, for instance (as I can tell by the table of sizes), in order to accommodate bleed and press marks. So, what is an average user, new to DTP or simply unaware, going to pick in the list Scribus presents? How can he know that? What if he picks that A1 format and runs the "BleedAndPrintMarks.py script"? What will he tell his printer, then? In North America, we use a variety of sheet sizes on press, from Letter to 28 X 40 inches, generally (most of the presses in the industry cannot accommodate larger, oversized stock — although some are, of course), depending if the stock is Text or Cover, mainly (but there are other distinctions and this would take a book). The cut format of magazines printed on web presses is not "Letter" and this "magazine" size, although well known and used everyday does not appear in a list of paper sizes because it is not a paper size! It’s a document size, meant to be printed on a larger sheet and folded, trimmed and finished to that size. In order to accommodate both that sheet (roll width and plate size, actually) and the bleed, the format is not 8,5 X 11 but 8,125 X 10,875 and sometimes 8,375 X 10,875. We should be able to find this in the list of pre-set sizes and if not, it would be great that we be able to set it ourselves. The actual list certainly shows the full knowledge and awareness one can have of *paper* sizes but beyond that it is only too confusing. Too many is the brother of too little... Moreover, the standards are all mixed up in the alphabetical order, only adding more confusion. While I agree it is fun, interesting and educative to have at hand such a comprehensive list of *paper* formats, I think it could be made as a reference table such as the tables we see in the wikipedia article — or, if we really want to stick with the availability of those formats to the users, we could make these tables like color swatches — and not as a list of *document* sizes. And a tool tip would be helpful to sort this out. * * * I hope the picture is clearer now. This leads me to a fourth suggestion, derived from 0000003, which I hope will find a good ear among the Scribussors. Instead of naming the new menu "Edit > Paper size", I would name it "Edit > Document size". Some of the already provided sizes (the "mergers") would be present in that list for the reasons I gave above : Letter, A4, for instance, to which we would add Legal and some others like business cards, plus the Custom size. Comprehensive lists of "Paper sizes" would be grouped in distinct lists, as stated in 0000003, but available nonetheless through the same dialogue (this may sound contradictory but I admit that in some cases it could be useful to have those paper sizes as document sizes, and it’s also a legacy work we can keep — I have no real problem with this). Users could not edit those lists of standard sizes (they are definite lists, right?). But, provided they would like to create a document of the size of a Paper size, they could add those lists to the Document size pull-down menu. It may seem complicated but in fact it isn’t and it has the merit of making a clear distinction between the two realities. AND it makes the list shorter from the start. Users could create a list of their own with their preferred "Document sizes". If we want to help a bit more, we could add some pre-set and mostly used document formats such as business cards (US and Canada) and business cards (European or ISO 218 countries) and magazine sizes, etc. We could add some often-used book size, etc. But I would not overload this. Let’s keep it simple. My own preference goes to a really short list, fully customisable. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Patch | |||||
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While this is a very descriptive bug, its is a duplicate of 1990. I am resolving it and it can be referenced from 1990's relationship view. 1990 is due for work in 1.3.6+ and not before, ie not in 1.3.3.x. Page > Manage Page Properties is correct and will not be changed, this is for the current page, not the current document. Changes for document wide settings are in File Document Setup. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2008-04-12 15:10 | louisdesjardins | New Issue | |
| 2008-04-12 17:46 | cbradney | Relationship added | duplicate of 0001990 |
| 2008-04-12 17:46 | cbradney | Duplicate ID | 0 => 1990 |
| 2008-04-12 17:46 | cbradney | Status | new => resolved |
| 2008-04-12 17:46 | cbradney | Resolution | open => duplicate |
| 2008-04-12 17:46 | cbradney | Assigned To | => cbradney |
| 2008-04-12 17:46 | cbradney | Note Added: 0019453 | |
| 2008-04-12 18:04 | cbradney | Note Edited: 0019453 | |
| 2008-04-12 18:11 | christoph_s | Status | resolved => closed |
