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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0008805ScribusStylespublic10-Feb-13 11:5710-Oct-24 13:27
ReporterMike 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityfeatureReproducibilityN/A
StatusnewResolutionopen 
PlatformallOSallOS Versionall
Product Version1.3.5svn 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0008805: hyphenate text and short words should be property of paragraph style
Descriptionhyphenate text and short words should be property of paragraph style
Steps To ReproduceTo the styles add check mark for hyphenate text and short words.
Additional InformationThis feature would resolve 0008243 and 0008639.
TagsNo tags attached.
Attached Filespng file icon hyphenation_shortwords.png [^] (115,787 bytes) 10-Mar-03 14:03

- Relationships

-  Notes
(0023421)
louisdesjardins (developer)
10-Mar-01 05:06

Agree.

Including Hyphenation language.
(0023422)
jghali (administrator)
10-Mar-01 10:14

Hyphenation language should rather be a property of character style as a paragraph may contain words in several language. The language property of character styles already control hyphenation language.
(0023429)
cezaryece (developer)
10-Mar-02 10:36

In my opinion be property of character style is less useful than be property of paragraph style. Whats more, if frame style feature will added, language properties (hyphenation, short words, spelling) will more useful for text frames than for character styles.
(0023431)
jghali (administrator)
10-Mar-02 10:55
edited on: 10-Mar-02 10:55

Per what i've written above language properties cannot be properties of paragraph style.

(0023437)
ale (manager)
10-Mar-02 19:14

is there any reason for being able to choose the hyphenation language in the preferences and the document settings?

shouldn't it be in the standard style, instead?
(0023438)
Mike (reporter)
10-Mar-02 20:23

I think that hyphenation and short words should be property of paragraph style. Choice of character styles is less importatnt, but you can add this too.

Example: You have two languages in document. The first is "normal" text and the second for example "computer output". For the first you need hyphenation, for second not.

It is not necessary to create more than two styles (if the new choice would belong to paragraph style). You can apply styles normally.

If the hyphenation and short words would be property ONLY character style. It would be necessary to create one more character style and apply this manually to each paragraph. It is waste of time.

=> I think that hyphenation and short words shoud be property of PARAGRAPH style and optionally CHARACTER style.
(0023439)
jghali (administrator)
10-Mar-02 20:49

>> is there any reason for being able to choose the hyphenation language in the preferences and the document settings?

Not really.

>> shouldn't it be in the standard style, instead?

It already is, the language defined in character style is used by hyphenator.
(0023440)
jghali (administrator)
10-Mar-02 21:05

Mike: language related properties are properties of character style. End of discussion. But you should note that you can define properties of the character style attached to a paragraph style in the character style tab of paragraph style creation dialog. So even if language properties are implemented as character style properties, that won't change much for you, as you'll define those properties directly when creating a paragraph style. No additional character style creation needed.
(0023441)
Mike (reporter)
10-Mar-02 22:23

ok, this bug is possible to rename:

hyphenate text and short words should be property of character style
(0023442)
louisdesjardins (developer)
10-Mar-03 05:40

Ok. What I understand now is this is mostly a misunderstanding. jghali’s explanation is clear.

No matter how we name this bug, I strongly support this feature request.

However, we need *all* the hyphenation settings. What is not implemented in this dialog is all the available settings for hyphenation, which are stored for the moment only in the Prefs and in the Hyphenate menu. May I suggest that selecting the language in the Style dialog *for the moment* is only partially useful as the other settings — that are as important — are missing: hyphenate, do not hyphenate, shortest word to be hyphenated, allowed number of hyphens in a row AND the exceptions, of course. There are some more settings that would need to be there, such as number of glyphs before and after the hyphen. These settings will differ from one language to another so they need to be included at Style level.

Now, do we also need to be able to set the hyphenation settings elsewhere is a good question. I think that yes and that this hyphenation style could be set apart and then be part of the char-paragraph style. There could be numerous paragraph styles that would use the exact same hyphenation settings. A Hyphenation style embedded into a Character Style embedded into a Paragraph Style could be very efficient and would help set text much faster as well as it would help avoid errors.

Note: the language tooltip itself mentions only the word "Language" when you go over the language pull down list, which is not very useful. If only this tooltip be a bit more verbose, it would be a start. Like: "Language in which the text will be hyphenated when hyphenation is applied (Extra > Hyphenate Text)"
(0023450)
Mike (reporter)
10-Mar-03 13:58

I think the best solution would be all settings to be only in preferences and Document Setup. In character style dialog would be only two check marks more. One for Hyphenate Text and the second one for Short Words. Please see picture above.

In Document Setup and Preferences would be both - Hyphenation and ShortWords (now it is only in preferences). Hyphenator would have "styles" according to languages - one language - one hyphenator settings with all exceptions etc. And yes...there are some missing features such as number of glyphs before and after the hyphen and prohibition of hyphenation of the last word of page.

To the yesterday discussion about manually and automatically add unbreakeble space: The behaviour would be the same like sub and superscripts. I don't see any problem here.
(0024200)
louisdesjardins (developer)
10-Jun-24 17:56

I think we need lots more flexibily here.

Applications settings should be kept for what they are. The overall general behavior of the application in various fields. Set some default values, yes. But at the ground level, we must be able to craft the application down to the tinyest detail.

Typography is about details.

When it comes down to typography, hyphenation, short words, language, then we need at hand the full set of settings as I mentionned already.

Hyphenation Style for instance, could be very useful. You can think of numerous cases when these styles would be called. Depending on the width of the line you could set the rule to be more or less permissive. You could need to call the power of the optical margins and the word spacing. All this would also depend on the font used, the size of that font, the linespacing. A Hyphenation style would allow to store those values and reuse them at will, depending on the work. For some publications we use various hyphenation settings.

If you set hyphenations settings as an overall settings in the prefs, this will allow very poor control in a field where you need a lot.

Same apply to the subscript and superscript settings which need to be different depending on the font and the size at which you use it. There has to be a default value, but we should be able to control those values at the lower level. Also, same comment for small caps. Sometimes it’s ok at 75%, sometimes not. Really, it depends completely on the font and on the typesize.
(0024696)
Mike (reporter)
10-Oct-23 23:11

Some progress?

I thing that the simplest and fully functional way is just add Hyphenation and Short Words to the Character Style. We can? deal with unbreakeble spaces which were in original text. Unbreakeble spaces would be undistinguishable. If you disable Short Words for some style which has some text, all unbreakeble spaces just disappear.

Hyphenation and Short Words would be configurable in Document Setup and Preferences (both).
(0024705)
cezaryece (developer)
10-Oct-24 08:56

Do you use Character Styles at all? I am not? Way this styles works is unusable for me at all. Adding hyphenation and Short Words to Character Style have not any sense for me. Maybe in some very unusual formatting they have usability, but for me any for daily tasks (working mainly with books and articles in newspaper layout).
Imagine - you want to remove hyphenation for some headers in the text. If you apply character style ALL other setting will overwrite - font, size, bold/italic attributes and all others. This is reason I don't use ChS at all. But way ChS works is for separate discussion topic...
BTW what difference will be between applying this settings by Character Style and applying it from menu? (now there is no possibility to remove "short words" in menu, but I never have to removing it till now).

Only one sensible way is to add hyphenation and short words settings to Paragraph Style (for automatically applying during formatting text) and keep way for manually applying it from menu for selection of text.

I agree with louisdesjardins that hyphenation, short words and language settings deserve for its own styles.
(0024708)
Mike (reporter)
10-Oct-24 10:41

>Do you use Character Styles at all? I am not? Way this styles works is unusable for me at all.

Yes, sometimes I do. There is missing feature which allow to apply character styles in SE and better selection of text in SE is missing too. But it works.

>Adding hyphenation and Short Words to Character Style have not any sense for me. Maybe in some very unusual formatting they have usability, but for me any for daily tasks (working mainly with books and articles in newspaper layout).

It's not important where this "checking marks" will be. Crucial is that feature. Hyphenation and Short Words are connected with language. Language is property of CHARACTER STYLE => Hyphenation and Short Words should be property of Character style.

>Imagine - you want to remove hyphenation for some headers in the text.

That's one of the reason why I submit this feature. You would just set up hyphenation off for header style.

>If you apply character style ALL other setting will overwrite - font, size, bold/italic attributes and all others. This is reason I don't use ChS at all.

Why would I do that? Every paragraph style can have its own character style. If you don't use character styles, you would just decide to "check" or not in Paragraph style and tab character style.

>But way ChS works is for separate discussion topic...
BTW what difference will be between applying this settings by Character Style and applying it from menu? (now there is no possibility to remove "short words" in menu, but I never have to removing it till now).

- Now you must do it manually for each text (text chain) separately instead of via styles (time-saving, less mistakes at typesetting).
- Now you can't disable hyphenation for some paragraph styles (titles, codes from computer etc.).
- Short words doesn't work with multilingual text (even if I set up Use Language from Style Definition)

>Only one sensible way is to add hyphenation and short words settings to Paragraph Style (for automatically applying during formatting text) and keep way for manually applying it from menu for selection of text.

Would be really necessary to let hyphenation and short words in menu?

>I agree with louisdesjardins that hyphenation, short words and language settings deserve for its own styles.

I think only hyphenation. But it's other feature request. At first it is necessary to implement basic feature and than you can add styles for that - for example bellow Hyphenation check mark add list with hyphenation styles.
(0024710)
cezaryece (developer)
10-Oct-24 12:38

I think there is some misunderstanding.
If you wrote "Character Style" you mean ChS tab in Paragraph Style or Character Style as separate kind of style?
In first case I agree with you absolutely, in second case I cant agree at all.
Always if I wrote "Character Style" I think about separate kind of style, not properties of Paragraph Style.
For further clearing: I never define Character Styles and never set Paragraph Style based on defined Character Style. But I always define character's parameters in Character Style tab of Paragraph Style.

IMHO Character Styles (as separate kind of styles) is biggest mix-up in whole Scribus. In Ventura is something like that feature (Character Tag if I remember), but there I define which character attributes overwrites actually selected text attributes.
Eg. if I define Character tag as only bold and I apply it to text which is normal and italic and various font sizes than ONLY text became bolder, but still will have normal, italic and sizes attributes saved. In Scribus unfortunately not and I think it not keep traditional standards in this case.
(0024713)
Mike (reporter)
10-Oct-24 13:27

Both of them. They are same and they are same from good reason. If you define paragraph style based on character style you will need hyphenation and short words in separate character style too. I used it several times and think that it should be there.

Separate character style is important and in Scribus, there is working as I expected. When I style text and need for example "links" (for example Table 2.1). I use some paragraph style and for "Table 2.1" character style. It has other font/color etc. Alignment and this kind of setting is obtained from paragraph style. What is mixed-up?

On the other hand is necessary to say that Ventura-way is slightly better. But now, this is not priority for me. Scribus has more important missing features.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
10-Feb-13 11:57 Mike New Issue
10-Mar-01 05:06 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0023421
10-Mar-01 10:14 jghali Note Added: 0023422
10-Mar-02 10:36 cezaryece Note Added: 0023429
10-Mar-02 10:55 jghali Note Added: 0023431
10-Mar-02 10:55 jghali Note Edited: 0023431 View Revisions
10-Mar-02 19:14 ale Note Added: 0023437
10-Mar-02 20:23 Mike Note Added: 0023438
10-Mar-02 20:49 jghali Note Added: 0023439
10-Mar-02 21:05 jghali Note Added: 0023440
10-Mar-02 22:23 Mike Note Added: 0023441
10-Mar-03 05:40 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0023442
10-Mar-03 13:58 Mike Note Added: 0023450
10-Mar-03 14:03 Mike File Added: hyphenation_shortwords.png
10-Jun-24 17:56 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0024200
10-Oct-23 23:11 Mike Note Added: 0024696
10-Oct-24 08:56 cezaryece Note Added: 0024705
10-Oct-24 10:41 Mike Note Added: 0024708
10-Oct-24 12:38 cezaryece Note Added: 0024710
10-Oct-24 13:27 Mike Note Added: 0024713



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