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IDProjectCategoryView StatusLast Update
0001485ScribusStylespublic2007-08-15 23:14
Reporterlouisdesjardins Assigned Tocbradney  
Status closedResolutionfixed 
PlatformLinuxOSMandrakeOS Version10
Product Version1.3 
Fixed in Version1.3.5svn 
Summary0001485: Set pt as the default unit for Above and Below in the Paragraph Style dialog
DescriptionThe values Above and Below in Vertical spaces in Edit>Paragraph Style follow the default unit of the document as set in Preference>General. Basically, depending upon your settings, you might end up defining a leading (or linespacing) value in millimeters, inches, picas or points where points only should be used for that purpose, just like for typesize.

The same applies for indents and first line indent, although I ackowledge there is no real consequences to that, as opposed to the vertical spaces that are closely related to the leading value.
Steps To ReproduceThe only way to get *points* in those fields is by setting up your general prefs in points, which might not prove to be very convenient to many users.
Additional InformationThe fact that numbers are rounded to the first decimal gives unaccurate transposition from points to picas. For instance, 3 and 4 points both give .3 picas, and 9 and 10 pts both give .8 picas.
TagsNo tags attached.


related to 0003865 closedjghali Lock first line to baseline grid. 



2005-01-04 07:19

administrator   ~0003328

I think if I want 5mm above the paragraph, then I should be allowed to use mm and not just pt, for example. You dont have to go into general preferences to changes the doc unit of measurement, click on the dropdown from the intersection of the page rulers.


2005-01-04 15:07

developer   ~0003332

Didn't know that trick. Thanks! But this doesn't solve the case imo.
1. Access to this drop down menu is disabled when paragraph style dialog is up.
2. When you set the units back to picas after a quick trip to points, the inaccuracies are back as well.

(and strangely, when you set the units to pts first, then set the Above and Below values, then change the units back to pica, the *display* in pica will be *rounded* to the first decimal but Scribus will keep track of the values that were entered there first and will properly show these values in pts if you set the units back to pts.
When you do this the other way: units in pica, set a value in pts-say 9 and 10 pts for above and below-they automatically show .8 picas. Now, change the units to points to see the result, both values will be set to 9.6 pts.)

For my part I consider the above and below values as part of the leading-and working with the baseline grid (“On“ for the body text and “Off“ for the subtitles to make them hang elegantly between 2 or 3 or more blank lines) will prove to be very useful to achieve a nice job. Mixing mm with pts in that case is - to me - mind boggling. ;-)

Thinking it over, this issue brings me back to a previous *tweak* that was on my list (still is) as to get picas to work in base 12. That way, no round trip in the unit field, to inaccuracies because of rounded numbers and ...happy typographers!

This also reminds me that Scribus doesn't allow users to put *styles* such as italic and bold because this can lead to problems at output (and I agree 100% with that). I think we are pretty much in the same paradigm here.


2005-01-04 15:45

administrator   ~0003333

Oh, and u can still type in 10pt, even if it shows the current measurement in mm.. and u can do 10pt+1mm-1p+0.25in, like in any decimal entry field.


2005-01-04 19:52

developer   ~0003335

Yes. This is great! Knew that one, 'cause I've read the tutorial ;-)))

There is still an accuracy issue when transposing from one unit to another.
When in the Paragraph Style dialog, here is how precise Scribus is for each unit:
0.0000 in
0.0 pt
0.0 mm
0.0 p

Accurate transposition from one unit to another is, thus, difficult.

BTW, Scribus is more precise when in the Properties palette:
0.0000 in
0.00 pt
0.000 mm
0.00 p

Advantages of picas/points expressed in base 12:
9 and 10 pt would render p9 and p10 and not .8 p which is the closest approximation possible right now. Actually, using base 10 and only 1 decimal gives the following (all steps of 1.2 pts):
.8 pica = 9.6 pts.
.9 pica = 10.8 pts
1 pica = 12 pts

1. Think we need base 12.
2. Maybe you would agree it'd be more accomodating to simply have *pt* as a default unit for all 3 Vertical spaces *without* taking away the possibility to enter values in the other units? Just like Line Spacing is working right now: you can put any other unit, Scribus will convert it on the fly. A way to tell you Line Spacing (or Leading) is expressed in points. From the typographic point of view, as I said, Above and Below are part of the Line Spacing (as the dialog also suggests).

What do you think?

Anyhow, the present bug is related to bug 0000130.


2005-01-04 19:59

developer   ~0003336

Can we edit the Summary line?
0001485: Above and Below values should be set in points, not in the default unit for the document
0001485: Set *pt* as the default unit for Above and Below in the Paragraph Style dialog


2006-02-06 18:27

developer   ~0008626

louis, can we close this? its fixed in 1.3cvs as i see.


2006-02-07 07:33

administrator   ~0008634

Not fixed.. shows mm here.


2006-02-07 13:34

developer   ~0008640

youre right, when mm is selected as unit, then mm is shown in the dialog.


2006-02-14 06:40

developer   ~0008738

Just noticed that this isn't fixed in 1.3.3 cvs (14feb06 build).


2006-04-13 21:59

developer   ~0009928

Planned in Roadmap Extras
with no ETA

Changing the status to acknowledged


2006-12-03 20:17

developer   ~0013745

Can we send a reminder on that one?


2006-12-03 20:34

developer   ~0013746

Reminder sent to: avox, fschmid


2006-12-17 20:55

developer   ~0013987

Adding Baseline grid value to this.

(Don't think there is a need for a new bug report.)

The baseline grid is linespace related and I think the same about it and the Space before and Space after: any value related to linespace, including baseline grid, should be expressed in points as a default. This is consistent with many typographical references.

Just as an example, we mostly keep the typesize and linespace together and say for instance that such text will be set in {FontName} 11/13, which means 11 pts typesize with a 13 pts linespace.

If we want to let people the choice, we only have to leave the field open to other units. As a side note, I still think we are misleading users when we let them believe they could put mm or cm or inches there (and they'd be understood by professionals - at least in North America). Like I said earlier, to me it's as inconsistent as having a typesize expressed in inches or centimeter or picas.


2007-07-02 05:44

developer   ~0016725

Once the new text engine is fully in operation and thus we have improved justification settings, I think it would be great to have a look again at this RFE.

We have 2 related issues. One with the unit itself. One with the accuracy of the units when we toggle from one to another. Imo, there shouldn't be a need for this toggling. If the paragraphs, type and linespaces settings are set in points no matter what the unit used for the entire document is, I think we're going to get closer to professional use.

If we want to leave the choice to users, then let's make that at least an option.


2007-08-15 23:14

administrator   ~0017045

Tested, fixed. Thanks!

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2005-01-04 03:51 louisdesjardins New Issue
2005-01-04 07:19 cbradney Note Added: 0003328
2005-01-04 15:07 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0003332
2005-01-04 15:45 cbradney Note Added: 0003333
2005-01-04 19:52 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0003335
2005-01-04 19:59 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0003336
2005-01-04 20:10 cbradney Summary Above and Below values should be set in points, not in the default unit for the document => Set pt as the default unit for Above and Below in the Paragraph Style dialog
2005-01-04 20:10 cbradney Description Updated
2006-02-06 18:27 jo-hannes Note Added: 0008626
2006-02-06 18:27 jo-hannes Status new => feedback
2006-02-07 07:33 cbradney Note Added: 0008634
2006-02-07 13:34 jo-hannes Note Added: 0008640
2006-02-14 06:40 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0008738
2006-04-13 21:59 mhanski Note Added: 0009928
2006-04-13 21:59 mhanski Status feedback => acknowledged
2006-04-13 21:59 mhanski Product Version 1.2.1cvs => 1.3
2006-05-24 19:31 christoph_s Relationship added related to 0003865
2006-12-03 20:17 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0013745
2006-12-03 20:34 mhanski Note Added: 0013746
2006-12-17 20:55 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0013987
2007-07-02 05:44 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0016725
2007-08-15 22:48 cbradney Status acknowledged => resolved
2007-08-15 22:48 cbradney Fixed in Version => 1.3.5svn
2007-08-15 22:48 cbradney Resolution open => fixed
2007-08-15 22:48 cbradney Assigned To => cbradney
2007-08-15 23:14 christoph_s Status resolved => closed
2007-08-15 23:14 christoph_s Note Added: 0017045