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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0017132ScribusTypographypublic2024-01-19 08:392024-01-22 09:38
ReporterPK Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeveritymajorReproducibilityalways
Status closedResolutionreopened 
Product Version1.6.0 
Summary0017132: French non breakable space are not normal space
DescriptionHi,

In French typo, when you add a non breakable space before a punctuation sign, it means that the word before the sign and the sign must be attached, i.e. they are seen as single word. The French reader sees a whole word, without break.

The space is here to separate the word from the punctuation sign, but it is not a normal space. It must not be expandable when Scribus has to justify the text, except in the case of Scribus magnifies the space *between* letters in a word. In such case, the identical space that Scribus puts between letters can be placed in plus of the space before the sign.

If you expand the space, like a normal space, you introduced a break with the previous word. If you expand all the space between letter, there is no break.

It seems quite respected with the thin space, but not quite with the (non-breakable) normal space.
Steps To ReproduceSee the attached doc.
I have formated the text respecting the French typo (non-breakable normal space before ':', non-breakable thinspace for '!' and '?"

The space before ':' is too large...
TagsNo tags attached.
PatchNo

Activities

PK

2024-01-19 08:39

reporter  

lettrine.sla (19,337 bytes)    
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lettrine.sla (19,337 bytes)   
lettrine.pdf (33,237 bytes)

jghali

2024-01-19 17:07

administrator   ~0050906

Copied from issue 0007629:

According to Unicode standards, NBSPACE is subject to compression and expansion when performing justification. See introduction of "Unicode Line Breaking Algorithm" (http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/#GL) :

"When compression or expansion is allowed, a locally optimal line break seeks to balance the relative merits of the resulting amounts of compression and expansion for different line break candidates. When expanding or compressing interword space according to common typographical practice, only the spaces marked by U+0020 SPACE and U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE are subject to compression, and only spaces marked by U+0020 SPACE, U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE, and occasionally spaces marked by U+2009 THIN SPACE are subject to expansion. All other space characters normally have fixed width. When expanding or compressing intercharacter space, the presence of U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE or U+2060 WORD JOINER is always ignored."

jghali

2024-01-19 17:17

administrator   ~0050907

According to https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Thread:Support/Spaces, it seems it is the Narrow No Break Space (U+202F) which should be used for French in the situations you describe, and not the basic Non Breakable Space (U+00A0).

jghali

2024-01-19 17:28

administrator   ~0050908

I just made a test : Narrow No Break Space works as expected and its width is not affected by justification.

ale

2024-01-19 18:02

manager   ~0050909

thin space does not seem to be affected either...
thins-space.png (7,524 bytes)   
thins-space.png (7,524 bytes)   

PK

2024-01-21 16:35

reporter   ~0050924

OK, I understand well : thanks a lot.

In French, we must use U+202F and not U+00A0 for 'normal' non breaking space/

I correct my script in this way.

Sorry for th error and thanks a lot for your explanation. You can close the 'bug'.

Thanks.

PK

2024-01-22 07:26

reporter   ~0050927

I did a mistake. I reopen the bug to add a comment for explanation.

NO-BREAK SPACE is the right space for 'espace insécable' in French typo, that means that the ponctuation sign should be glued with the previous word *AND* the space between them is the same as the _other spaces of the line_. So my initial request was wrong: the space is really the same as the others, even if it is difficult to read! the shame of me! (cf. Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie nationale, ISBN 2-11-081075-0).

*thin* No Break Space (U+202F) has a specific role in French typo: it must be placed where an 'espace *fine* insécable'' is required (such as before the ; ? and !). At this point, the space can't be expanded during the justification.

So, all this points of typo (and others) are correctly handled by my script https://github.com/patricekaratchentzeff/Scribus.

Notice that the general purpose of adding No Break Space of Scribus does not deal correctly the French Typo (this is why I propose my script to do it).

Thanks and all my excuses for opening a 'false' bug. You can close definitely the bug :)

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
2024-01-19 08:39 PK New Issue
2024-01-19 08:39 PK File Added: lettrine.sla
2024-01-19 08:39 PK File Added: lettrine.pdf
2024-01-19 17:07 jghali Note Added: 0050906
2024-01-19 17:17 jghali Note Added: 0050907
2024-01-19 17:28 jghali Note Added: 0050908
2024-01-19 18:02 ale Note Added: 0050909
2024-01-19 18:02 ale File Added: thins-space.png
2024-01-21 16:35 PK Note Added: 0050924
2024-01-21 18:11 ale Status new => closed
2024-01-21 18:11 ale Resolution open => no change required
2024-01-22 07:26 PK Status closed => feedback
2024-01-22 07:26 PK Resolution no change required => reopened
2024-01-22 07:26 PK Note Added: 0050927
2024-01-22 09:38 ale Status feedback => closed