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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000131ScribusGeneralpublic2004-01-09 00:572014-10-12 20:39
Reportercbradney 
Assigned Toavox 
PrioritynormalSeverityfeatureReproducibilityalways
StatusassignedResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version1.3 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0000131: Ability to have various typographic spacing
Description(thin, en and em spaces) breakable and non-breakable ...
TagsNo tags attached.
Patch
Attached Filestxt file icon NamesList.txt [^] (805,104 bytes) 2006-02-24 23:27
txt file icon special_characters.txt [^] (123 bytes) 2006-02-24 23:38 [Show Content]

- Relationships
related to 0000728closedsubik "Hanging Conjunctions" 
parent of 0003289assignedsubik adopt the typo spaces into Short Words 
parent of 0003400acknowledged Support for international typographic spacing (e.g. German) 
has duplicate 0006645closedjghali Letter spaces don´t work 
has duplicate 0006751closedjghali Failure in spaces characteres 
related to 0000294closed Word spacing 
related to 0002332new Add regular expression capability to Search/Replace 
related to 0004000assignedavox Customized fonts 
child of 0004004acknowledged Metabug: Typographic spacing 
Not all the children of this issue are yet resolved or closed.

-  Notes
(0001789)
prokoudine (reporter)
2004-06-20 16:10

And the same for dashes.

Plus a quick inserting of different quotation marks (straight quotes, chevrons (bracketrs) etc.) would be a nifty feature as well.

In Adobe InDesign you can access them via "Insert special character" and "Insert white space" submenus in text frame and story editor pop-up (context sensitive) menu and via hotkeys.

I can provide a list of the all the hotkeys, if needed.
(0002216)
louisdesjardins (developer)
2004-08-24 21:47

This would also make the brand new plug-in “Short Words For Scribus“ even more effective and professionnal.
(0008744)
louisdesjardins (developer)
2006-02-14 14:20

Craig,
Do you think we could raise the priority level on this one. In french typography, thin spaces for high punctuation signs is a necessity.
(0008746)
cbradney (administrator)
2006-02-14 14:37

Insert->Spaces doesnt have what you need? If theres another unicode space character I can put it in.
(0008747)
louisdesjardins (developer)
2006-02-14 14:50

There is only the regular non-breakable space available yet. This space is what we call a "justifying space" as its width will vary on each line following the justification (so, all equal on each line, not necessarily equal from line to line).

What we are looking for (at minimum) is the thin space, otherwise called 1/4 em (quart de quadratin) which has a fixed value and is non-breakable.

The Space menu is fine but not very efficient to "crunch" lots of text. We'd need to have the thin space directly supported into the Short Words file (now, this is *very fast!*) and in the Search/Replace dialog.
(0008749)
subik (manager)
2006-02-14 20:49

imho it should solve the new layout engine. The typo spaces are *very* important in czech/slovak typography too.
If there will be this spaces available it's no problem to update the short words plugin.
(0008782)
PLucAuclair (reporter)
2006-02-17 06:51
edited on: 2006-02-25 00:25

**Please raise priority to HIGH** This is very much needed!

Here's a list of characters I feel we really need:
In general, the 'solidus [2044]' (that's gonna help with all the damned slashes I see instead of this glyph), and the 'midpoint [00B7]' (which is a very handy separation symbol).

Then there is the army of spaces. That is the 'en (M/2)', the 'em (M/1)', the 'thin space (M/5)', the 'thick space (M/3)', the 'mid space (M/4)' and finally, the hair space (M/24). Maybe also the unnamed spaces M/6 and M/8.

(0008896)
avox (administrator)
2006-02-24 23:48

I think the correct Unicode name is "thick space", not "think space" :-)
(0008897)
cbradney (administrator)
2006-02-25 00:21
edited on: 2006-02-25 00:23

Solidus 2044
Midpoint 00B7

EN Space 2002
EM Space 2003
Thin Space 2009
Thick Space 2004
Mid Space 2005
Hair Space 200A

are there now.

(0008899)
PLucAuclair (reporter)
2006-02-25 00:25

I think the correct Unicode name is "thick space", not "think space" :-)

Hehee right! Fixing that. ;)
(0008907)
louisdesjardins (developer)
2006-02-25 17:40

Craig,

I can see the new spaces in the Insert menu but they're greyed. The non-breaking space is available. Not the other spaces.

Also, today I built a fresh copy of Scribus (cvs 1.3.3) to see and use the new spaces and strangely the date in "About" still shows 21Feb06 although your last note is from the 25Feb06.

What's wrong?
(0008910)
cbradney (administrator)
2006-02-25 22:09

If your active font doesn't have the glyphs, then we cant use them. As for the date, we just havent updated it.
(0008911)
cbradney (administrator)
2006-02-25 22:10

Grab cvs for the new date...
(0008914)
louisdesjardins (developer)
2006-02-26 04:02

cvs = new date = ok.

Thin and all other new spaces still greyed, no matter which font I use. Among them, Utopia, Bistream Charter, Century Schoolbook.... to name a few.

Do I have to activate something?
(0008920)
cbradney (administrator)
2006-02-26 13:43

Choose a font that has them, for me Arial Unicode MS has them. I do find it strange that Adobe Caslon etc doesnt have them, maybe they have them in a non Unicode standard location.
(0008925)
louisdesjardins (developer)
2006-02-26 16:45

I tried with the following OpenType Fonts from Adobe

Adobe Jenson Pro
Adobe Garamond Pro

It still won't work. BTW I see all other glyphs available in the other submenus.
(0008926)
louisdesjardins (developer)
2006-02-26 17:00

When I insert a space manually using Insert > Glyph and the unicode ID (from the list you provide in an above note) I get a big red square into my text.

Tried with
2009
200A
2002
and they all show the same red square. The spaces are of equal width also.

At PDF export, the red squares disappear, leaving just the same spaces we see on screen.
(0008927)
avox (administrator)
2006-02-26 17:07

I guess most font designers are just too bored to design various spaces...

We would have to change more code in Scribus to emulate them. Not impossible, but you'll have to wait a little longer.

Craig: I plan to rewrite class Foi, fontmetrics, etc. anyhow and could it put in there.
(0008930)
christoph_s (administrator)
2006-02-26 18:50

Louis, can you try Gentium? Works here.
(0008931)
louisdesjardins (developer)
2006-02-26 19:35

I don't have Gentium. Sorry. I tried with various other fonts I have from the Adobe FontFolio CD-ROM ... w/o success.
(0008932)
christoph_s (administrator)
2006-02-26 19:39

Confirmed. No luck with any of my Adobe or Bistream (CorelDraw) fonts.

You can get Gentium for free here:

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=Gentium [^]
(0008933)
PLucAuclair (reporter)
2006-02-26 19:53
edited on: 2006-02-26 21:44

Just thought I'd let you know guys.

Most font designers don't include various spaces because 1, they often do not digitalize their fonts themselves and 2. most DTP apps usually have some kind of "fake" spaces managing. Both ways, this is laziness from the font company. This might also date from previous font systems where, for example in metal or photosetting, systems had ways to put these spaces.

You might have to edit some of your fonts in FontForge or a similar program to add these few spacing characters, if license permits of course.

These are the measurements in the 1000=1em unit system of the different spaces.

EN Space 2002 500 (M/2)
EM Space 2003 1000 (M/1)
Thin Space 2009 200 (M/5)
Thick Space 2004 ±333 (M/3)
Mid Space 2005 250 (M/4)
Hair Space 200A ±42 (M/24)

So until this feature would be added, there is no way to insert these into your text. This is minor pain for the increased functionality.

(0008934)
cbradney (administrator)
2006-02-26 21:50

Louis, the bigred square means the glyph isnt in the font. Basically, get other fonts, or unfortunately, wait until the new text system can handle emulating this stuff.
(0008935)
PLucAuclair (reporter)
2006-02-26 22:00

I will write a tutorial on adding the spaces in FontForge this afternoon.
(0008936)
PLucAuclair (reporter)
2006-02-27 00:22

Done, get it here: http://www.heliosmulti.com/plaplo/?page_id=27 [^]
(0009451)
alexandre (developer)
2006-03-23 18:29

Craig, more types of spaces and their Unicode values are listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_character [^]
(0009899)
mhanski (developer)
2006-04-13 21:02

Planned in Roadmap Extras http://wiki.scribus.net/index.php/1.3.x_Roadmap_Extras [^]
with no ETA

Changing the status to acknowledged
(0031227)
JLuc (updater)
2014-01-30 12:22
edited on: 2014-01-30 18:17

I have added the "narrow non-breaking space" in my favorite glyphs set of the glyphs palette and its clearly the favourite glyph i'm using most.

So as to do so i edited a saved favorite glyph set and added following lines :
# NNBSP : narrow non break space
08239 Arimo Regular

- Good thing with favorite glyph palette, here, is that it is linked to a specific font. So i can insert this favorite glyph even when this glyph is not defined in the current text font.
- Other advantage is that access to it is quicker than inserting via the menu.

Drawbacks of doing so is :
- 0011988 hint bubble only displays unfriendly unicode (should display name too)
- 0010584 : inserting glyph via favorite's palette requires a single click at the precise editing position in the text afterward, so as to go on with editing. When forgotten, editing carret blinks as in edit mode, but further typing is not recorded.

(0033990)
ancientgeek (reporter)
2014-10-12 20:03
edited on: 2014-10-12 20:07

You all missed a few :-) See <unicode-table.com/en/>
and, of course, I am using the EM QUAD at least once in every four lines of text. The EM QUADs were entered from the keyboard in Apache Office. Scribus v1.4.3 just complains about a missing glyph, but does the right thing.

U+0020 SPACE Depends on font, typically 1/4 em, often adjusted
U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE As a space, but often not adjusted
U+1680 OGHAM SPACE MARK Unspecified; usually not really a space but a dash
U+180E MONGOLIAN VOWEL SEPARATOR No width
U+2000 EN QUAD 1 en (= 1/2 em)
U+2001 EM QUAD 1 em (nominally, the height of the font)
U+2002 EN SPACE 1 en (= 1/2 em)
U+2003 EM SPACE 1 em
U+2004 THREE-PER-EM SPACE 1/3 em
U+2005 FOUR-PER-EM SPACE 1/4 em
U+2006 SIX-PER-EM SPACE 1/6 em
U+2007 FIGURE SPACE “Tabular width”, the width of digits
U+2008 PUNCTUATION SPACE The width of a period “.”
U+2009 THIN SPACE 1/5 em (or sometimes 1/6 em)
U+200A HAIR SPACE Narrower than THIN SPACE
U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE Nominally no width, but may expand
U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE Narrower than NO-BREAK SPACE (or SPACE)
U+205F MEDIUM MATHEMATICAL SPACE 4/18 em
U+3000 IDEOGRAPHIC SPACE The width of ideographic () characters.
U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE No width (the character is invisible)

(0033991)
ancientgeek (reporter)
2014-10-12 20:39

response to AVOX. Or, authors could choose fonts that have the necessary Unicode (UTF-16) glyphs present. I have thousands of fonts, and yes, quite a few of them are a bit sloppy when it comes to UTF-16 glyphs. Fortunately, Apache Office allows all UTF-16 characters (U+0000 to U+FFFF) to be entered from the keyboard.
{<ctrl><alt><shift>u}{enter 4 digit hex code}{<enter>}
Note: the 4 finger salute at the beginning!
So it is relatively easy to create a glyph test ODT with your favourite characters and review the glyphs for your font choice.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2004-01-09 00:57 cbradney New Issue
2004-01-09 01:03 cbradney Category Documentation => General
2004-06-20 16:10 prokoudine Note Added: 0001789
2004-08-24 21:47 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0002216
2004-09-24 01:00 cbradney Product Version => 1.3
2004-10-07 20:48 subik Relationship added related to 0000294
2006-02-14 14:20 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0008744
2006-02-14 14:37 cbradney Note Added: 0008746
2006-02-14 14:50 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0008747
2006-02-14 17:19 mhanski Relationship added related to 0000728
2006-02-14 20:49 subik Note Added: 0008749
2006-02-17 06:51 PLucAuclair Note Added: 0008782
2006-02-17 06:53 PLucAuclair Note Edited: 0008782
2006-02-17 06:54 PLucAuclair Note Edited: 0008782
2006-02-24 23:27 cbradney File Added: NamesList.txt
2006-02-24 23:38 PLucAuclair File Added: special_characters.txt
2006-02-24 23:48 avox Note Added: 0008896
2006-02-25 00:21 cbradney Note Added: 0008897
2006-02-25 00:23 cbradney Note Edited: 0008897
2006-02-25 00:25 PLucAuclair Note Added: 0008899
2006-02-25 00:25 PLucAuclair Note Edited: 0008782
2006-02-25 10:25 subik Relationship added parent of 0003289
2006-02-25 17:40 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0008907
2006-02-25 22:09 cbradney Note Added: 0008910
2006-02-25 22:10 cbradney Note Added: 0008911
2006-02-26 04:02 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0008914
2006-02-26 13:43 cbradney Note Added: 0008920
2006-02-26 16:45 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0008925
2006-02-26 17:00 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0008926
2006-02-26 17:07 avox Note Added: 0008927
2006-02-26 18:50 christoph_s Note Added: 0008930
2006-02-26 19:35 louisdesjardins Note Added: 0008931
2006-02-26 19:39 christoph_s Note Added: 0008932
2006-02-26 19:53 PLucAuclair Note Added: 0008933
2006-02-26 19:54 PLucAuclair Note Edited: 0008933
2006-02-26 19:55 PLucAuclair Note Edited: 0008933
2006-02-26 19:56 PLucAuclair Note Edited: 0008933
2006-02-26 21:44 PLucAuclair Note Edited: 0008933
2006-02-26 21:50 cbradney Note Added: 0008934
2006-02-26 22:00 PLucAuclair Note Added: 0008935
2006-02-27 00:22 PLucAuclair Note Added: 0008936
2006-02-27 01:50 avox Relationship added child of 0002228
2006-03-23 18:29 alexandre Note Added: 0009451
2006-04-13 21:02 mhanski Note Added: 0009899
2006-04-13 21:02 mhanski Status new => acknowledged
2006-04-14 13:24 mhanski Relationship added related to 0002332
2006-04-20 16:44 mhanski Relationship added related to 0003400
2006-04-21 09:51 plinnell Relationship deleted related to 0003400
2006-04-21 09:51 plinnell Relationship added parent of 0003400
2006-07-10 15:26 mhanski Relationship added related to 0004000
2006-07-11 00:10 mhanski Relationship added child of 0004004
2006-11-18 07:34 avox Status acknowledged => assigned
2006-11-18 07:34 avox Assigned To => avox
2008-01-12 20:43 jghali Relationship added has duplicate 0006645
2008-02-08 17:08 jghali Relationship added has duplicate 0006751
2014-01-30 12:22 JLuc Note Added: 0031227
2014-01-30 18:15 JLuc Note Edited: 0031227 View Revisions
2014-01-30 18:16 JLuc Note Edited: 0031227 View Revisions
2014-01-30 18:17 JLuc Note Edited: 0031227 View Revisions
2014-10-12 20:03 ancientgeek Note Added: 0033990
2014-10-12 20:07 ancientgeek Note Edited: 0033990 View Revisions
2014-10-12 20:39 ancientgeek Note Added: 0033991



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